Curse

Domino · Nov 14, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

there's nothing "Veteran" about playing an online game by yourself with bots.

by playing with henches only you establish that you are unable to work in a human team, and cannot adapt to the potential shortcomings of said team to complete objectives.

your generalizations also don't take into account some people play with guildmates, which is by far the optimal social experience if you ask me.

Str0b0 · Nov 14, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

there's nothing "Veteran" about playing an online game by yourself with bots.

by playing with henches only you establish that you are unable to work in a human team, and cannot adapt to the potential shortcomings of said team to complete objectives.

your generalizations also don't take into account some people play with guildmates, which is by far the optimal social experience if you ask me.

I disagree. You cannot make the assertion that someone who plays with henchmen and heros is unable to play with a human team. The only factual statement you can make in that regard is that it appears that they are unwilling to play with human teams. Unwilling and unable are two entirely different concepts. I am perfectly able to play with a human team and to compensate for their idiotic behavior at times however I am unwilling to do so. I buy a game to enjoy it not to be aggravated by the other people.

I'm sure that there are others who feel much the same way. It isn't that we can't play with other people it's simply that we don't like to. Now that I have made that statement let me stave off the next slew of pointless remarks. First I know someone will bring this point up. I like to play alone because it allows me to enjoy the game at my own pace. I am aware that it is a MMORPG and that you can play with other people. No I would not be happier in a single player game because then who would I trade with? You also cannot tell me that I am not playing the game the way it was meant to be played because not one person here, with the exception of Gaile, works for Arena Net. Now that that is out of the way I would say that it is unfair to make the generalized statement that all people who play with henchmen and heros are unable to play with a full human team, particularly when you admonish another person to not make generalizations in virtually the same breathe.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 14, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Why I like PuGs over Bots:

1. They complement on good healing and other good works.
2. They would run in the way of mobs just to prevent them from getting to me.
3. They are less "over-serious".
4. They are funny

.
5. They appreciate stuff like Blood ritual and healing seed.

Why I like PuGs over Guildies/Friends/PvP acquaintances:

1. I find them have more of a general sense of what skills to bring for a mission. Ex. In a less healing zone....pugs monk brought Healer's Boon, while PvP guy I know brought...cookie cutter blessed light/boon prot monk, which is horrible for that area.
2. They are MUCH MUCH more forgiving on mistakes. A guildie would snap at me for overextending, or for overhealing, while a pug would probably say nothing.
3. Again...they would get in the way of mobs for you.
4. They have a more general sense of when they can actually take a fight, and actually take a risk. Whenever I am in a friends/guildie group, we aggro a bit more than usual....and its "OMG FALL BACK NOW, monks first! warrior last!"....overreact ftl

gestalt · Nov 14, 2006, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I demand forced grouping! Play with me or else!

I'm sorry but none of you have a fro as cool as Koss' fro, so TS I'm taking him.

Mai · Nov 14, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ex

Why I like PuGs over Guildies/Friends/PvP acquaintances:

1. I find them have more of a general sense of what skills to bring for a mission. Ex. In a less healing zone....pugs monk brought Healer's Boon, while PvP guy I know brought...cookie cutter blessed light/boon prot monk, which is horrible for that area.
2. They are MUCH MUCH more forgiving on mistakes. A guildie would snap at me for overextending, or for overhealing, while a pug would probably say nothing.
3. Again...they would get in the way of mobs for you.
4. They have a more general sense of when they can actually take a fight, and actually take a risk. Whenever I am in a friends/guildie group, we aggro a bit more than usual....and its "OMG FALL BACK NOW, monks first! warrior last!"....overreact ftl

Sounds like you need to find a new guild and some new friends honestly.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

there's nothing "Veteran" about playing an online game by yourself with bots.

Whether you play with hench or not has nothing to do with experience or outlook on others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

by playing with henches only you establish that you are unable to work in a human team, and cannot adapt to the potential shortcomings of said team to complete objectives.

Hmmm, I smell bitterness smothered in flawed logic. With your statement you completey disregard the fact that many people avoid PuGs for reasons completely independant of play skill. Some people just don't want to risk ending up in a group with some kid spamming crap and drawing penises and swastikas on the map. Also your conclusion completely disregards the possibility of the group termed "Vets" playing with known friends/guild/alliance mates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

your generalizations also don't take into account some people play with guildmates, which is by far the optimal social experience if you ask me.

Your generalizations are terribly pessimistic, spiteful, and flawed. Rera did take these into acount even though they were not specifically mentioned. Perhaps you should reread the post and question your logic rationally.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 14, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Sounds like you need to find a new guild and some new friends honestly.

Not really, they are pretty NORMAL considering the current gaming trends. PLAY to WIN. However in PuGs I can find those abnormal ones that actually like to joke around for a bit.

Nemon · Nov 14, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

The changes in the game _are_ of consequence to me as i like PuGs, and i believe certain aspects of NF cause problems for PuG groups. All that is happening now is someone new posts a reply that has been hashed over pages before, and normally irrelevant to what i actually posted.

It's not always true that those who wish to hench don't know how to PuG, but the many in this thread that've posted how they have tried and consistently failed certainly lead me to believe that. IMHO it's all about attitude and how you behave in a group that ultimately determines it's success. How else do you account for my success with PuGs and others apparent repeated failures? I certainly don't think i am better than anyone else here. I'm sure some of the players here know much more about skills, nrg management, tactics, flagging hench, etc. So, it must be my attitude and behavior that makes the difference between my repeated success and others repeated failures. That, or they are exaggerating to extremes.

Just wanted to quote this because it's very true.

Quote:

So let's see ... where has this argument gone in 12 pages ...

Oh, it's the same damn thing over and over.

There are two camps here that won't be reconciled.
- PuG camp. Casual gamers, people who want a social experience, don't care too much about failing a mission, kicks back and has fun.
- Vet camp. Want to do everything as efficiently as possible. Social experience unnecessary. Incompetence is the greatest sin.

The Vet camp will always think that PuGing is a phenomenal waste of time.
The PuG camp will always think that playing an MMO alone is self-defeating.

So what are we still arguing about?

The argument is exactly what you said. The problem is there is no need for it. It's like me going into a Hero topic and complaining against people that want a different hair style for Koss. Whether they get a different hair style or not is irrelivent to me like it's irrelivent to henchers in here whether PuGers catch a break.

FexFX · Nov 14, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Okay, I'd like to clarify my position a bit.

I do not believe that PUGing is always the best or most efficient way to get through the game.

I do not believe that PUGs are always (or even usually) better equiped to compliment your build and push your through a Mission.

I do not think that PUGs are a replacement for Guildies.

I do not advocate forced PUGing.

I DO feel that giving up on PUGs completely does a real disservice to the GW world as a whole, and will lead to an increased sense of isolationist play that will eventually cause the game to consist almost entirely of n00bs PUGing each other, and Vets exclusively Guilding. Neo-elitism in the CORPG. Heroes and Henchies are an alternative, not a replacement, for human beings! (The OPs point I believe)

I DO believe that sometimes PUGing can be significantly more fun than steamrolling through a mission with Heroes, Henchies, or your taylor made Guildie group. You miss the excitement of flying by the seat of your pants, and taking chances. You miss out on new combinations and interesting permutations if you only follow the preset notions held by any one group or guild.

I don't play GW to replace my real world social life, however what is wrong with wanting the time I spend on GW to be social as well? Are you saying that YOU can only enjoy GW so long as it remains an antisocial experience? That after a long day hanging out with your pals at the pub you just can't handle the notion of talking to strangers online while you play Guild Wars?

I was invited to my guild during a PUG because I demonstrated maturity and skill as well as being social and generally fun to play with...

And being a hermit is not a sin, but it certainly does nothing to help the situation the OP was writing about either. In fact, it exacerbates it!

Rera · Nov 14, 2006, 09:00 PM // 21:00

@FexFX: as I said, there is the camp who thinks that solo, 'antisocial' play is nonsensical, and you fall into that camp. The people who absolutely hate PuGs are in the opposing camp and will never agree with your position.

You're also missing the point. People who refuse to PuG don't do so for the sole purpose of being alone. Being alone is the side-effect. The point is that PuGs don't get things done as well as guild/hero groups do, and that's why people don't PuG. It has nothing to do with being social or not.

If PuGs were composed of good players, I would PuG everything. But they aren't, so I don't.

The reason that newbies are the majority in the GW playerbase is a flaw of the game design - specifically, the game is too easy. Nobody is forced to learn anything, so most of the players never do, and as a result, none of the vets are willing to party with them. Suggesting that the experienced players should teach the newbies is looking too far - you have to convince the newbies that they actually *need* teaching in the first place.

Mai · Nov 14, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

The point is that PuGs don't get things done as well as guild/hero groups do, and that's why people don't PuG. It has nothing to do with being social or not.

If PuGs were composed of good players, I would PuG everything. But they aren't, so I don't.

The reason that newbies are the majority in the GW playerbase is a flaw of the game design - specifically, the game is too easy. Nobody is forced to learn anything, so most of the players never do, and as a result, none of the vets are willing to party with them. Suggesting that the experienced players should teach the newbies is looking too far - you have to convince the newbies that they actually *need* teaching in the first place.

QFT

It's nothing about being antisocial. I'm a very social person around my guild and in outposts where I hang out but the main point is the fact that I do not want to deal with 8 year olds spamming "WTF HEALZ MONK! REZ REZ REZ." No, I do not play alone at all, I play with guildies and friends that I've made through out my time here and we all agree that we'd rather take henchies and heroes rather than dealing with the random little kid that loves to spam useless dribble, draw idiotic pictures on the map and refusing to listen.

So give me bots anytime over that.

Eclair · Nov 14, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

My biggest problem with PUGs is generally that most PUGs refuse to move on unless they get 2 real monks. So we wait around forever with 6/8 people waiting for two "real" monks, when I'm perfectly content with going with 2 henchie healers.

JoeKnowMo · Nov 14, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Used to be that good players would carry a bad team. This is exactly what hurt the game because bad players learned that they didn't need to improve, they needed to team up with good players and they would get through.

Now, with bad players being forced to team up with each other or take heroes/hench and fail a good deal, they are starting to improve.

To paraphrase an old adage: Instead of being given free fish, the bad players are now forced to learn how to fish.

In a couple of months, once the majority know how to fish, pugs will return and will be a much better experience.

Frostlight · Nov 15, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Many (I would say most) people who avoid PuGs don't do so out of hate or antisocial behaviour. That said, it's no businses but the player's own as to whom he wants to play with. Lone players and guildies don't tell puggers to play less pug or accuse them of social pathologies. Neither should puggers in return.

If your idea of fun depends on fellow like-minded players, then work on them instead of railing at those who plays differently. The burden is on the bad pug players to improve, not the ones who avoid them.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 15, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Personally...My bad pugging experiences had been the exact opposite reason than what most people here says.

Usually my bad pugs always have one person that keeps lecturing everyone about everything, don't overextend! stop overhealing! kite faster! Interrupt better! OMG you are suppose to wait for me while I am afk, why did you fight the next group?! (of 3).

Then obviously bickering starts and the one "perfectionist" and over-critical person would "omg! you guys suck, i am calling my guildies" and leave. Then me and the other 6 above average "noob" still manage to beat the mission...i don't know why the GOOD players are always the one causing more problems then its worth

majoho · Nov 15, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would just like to remind you about hero's are not a replacement in coop mission as real players.Don't forget this is cooperative game where we are all cooperate and coodinate with each other.This is mostly in coop missions even if you have heros or not.I would suggest if your hero is not needed use real ppl as to the reason most are outfitting thier hero's with runes/dyes etc..They are just like henchies don't forget.

You have no right telling people how to play, everyone can decide for themselves how they want to play - if someone insists on soloing you aren't losing anything by him doing so because he might not even play if he had to group with real people.

Sirus Dibley · Nov 15, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

So let's see ... where has this argument gone in 12 pages ...

Oh, it's the same damn thing over and over.

There are two camps here that won't be reconciled.
- PuG camp. Casual gamers, people who want a social experience, don't care too much about failing a mission, kicks back and has fun.
- Vet camp. Want to do everything as efficiently as possible. Social experience unnecessary. Incompetence is the greatest sin.

The Vet camp will always think that PuGing is a phenomenal waste of time.
The PuG camp will always think that playing an MMO alone is self-defeating.

So what are we still arguing about?

Im a vet thats likes playing with real people. I know many fellow vets that feel the same. Bang goes that argument.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2006, 04:45 AM // 04:45

How's that saying go? Ah yes: "There are two types of people, those who group people into two types, and those who don't."

Yeah.

Anyway, my reason for using heroes instead of PuGs? Simple. PuGing doesn't fit my playstyle. I'm a casual player, who takes frequent breaks, often in the middle of a mission. It's why I hated Factions timed missions. It's why I bought this game in the first place - that I could have henchies that wouldn't complain when I took a break.

It's not that I'm trying to avoid the bitching. It's that I hate to inconvience people. I know when you make a group, there is a predetermined pace that the other players will wish to go at. Go any slower, or heck, any faster and there will be problems with others. It's rarely perfect. Not that it should be, but I don't want to be the one on the team that everyone's complaining about because I take too damn long.

In summary: I like GW because when I want to group with friends who understand and work around each other's playstyles, I can and do. Or when they're not around, I can still play without inconviencing others. Is this really an elitist or antisocial attitude? If so, it's news to me.

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

oh noes! my argument went bang!

If you really care that much, I'll rephrase it:

Camp 1: People who care about doing things as efficiently as possible
Camp 2: People who care about playing with PuGs

Now, you guys need to stop being hardasses for long enough to realize that none of you are actually saying anything new or worthwhile. Neither camp is going to convince the other camp of anything - in fact, you are more likely to cement your opponents' views that your position is even more retarded than they originally thought.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Well, let me re-phrase my quote, then: "Not every discussion/argument has only two sides."

You simply posting that there are two camps does not make it true. With those choices, I'd have to say I wouldn't belong here at all. But wait! I have something to contribute! Are you the law? Are you going to tell me I can't contribute because I don't fit snugly into your two groups?

Honestly, there doesn't need to be 'groups' or 'sides' in this. Everyone plays different. There is no need to point fingers and tell everyone else how to play. I have no opponents, because I'm not arguing.